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[RRD]

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be  on his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,  Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end, on the  throne of David, and on his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with  justice and with righteousness from henceforth even forever. The zeal of Yahweh  of Hosts will perform this. -- World English Bible translation.
 
The Hebrew does not have the definite article, but I do believe that Jesus is a mighty one of power (EL GIBBOR), although I am not certain that the prophet meant this to be used in that manner.

The Holy Scriptures no where depicts the Son of God as being his God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, of whom he is the son. God, by means of his holy spirit, reveals through the scriptures that He, Yahweh  (Jehovah), is the only true God, the God and Father of the Lord Jesus. Jesus has  One who is the Supreme Being over him; Jesus is not his Supreme Being whom he  worships, prays to, and who sent him, and whose will he carried out in willful  obedience. -- Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Matthew 4:4 (Deuteronomy 8:3; Luke 4:4);  Matthew 4:7 (Deuteronomy 6:16); Matthew 4:10 (Exodus 20:3-5; Exodus 34:14; Deuteronomy  6:13,14; Deuteronomy 10:20; Luke 4:8); Matthew 22:29-40; Matthew 26:42; Matthew 27:46; Mark  10:6 (Genesis 1:27; Genesis 2:7,20-23); Mark 14:36; Mark 15:34; Luke 22:42; John 4:3;  John 5:30; John 6:38; John 17:1,3; John 20:17; Romans 15:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 11:31; Ephesians  1:3,17; Hebrews 1:9; 10:7; 1 Peter 1:3; Revelation 2:7; Revelation 3:2,12.

God, by means of his holy spirit, reveals through the scriptures that Jesus was  sent by Yahweh, speaks for Yahweh, represents Yahweh, and was raised and  glorified by the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jesus never claimed to be, nor  do the scriptures present Jesus as, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, whom  Jesus represents and speaks for. -- Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Matthew 22:32; Matthew 23:39;  Mark 11:9,10; Mark 12:26; Luke 13:35; Luke 20:37; John 3:2,17,32-35; John 4:34; John 5:19,30,36,43;  John 6:57; John 7:16,28; John 8:26,28,38; John 10:25; John 12:49,50; John 14:10; John 15:15; John 17:8,26; John 20:17; Acts  2:22,34-36; Acts 3:13,22; Acts 5:30; Romans 15:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 1 Corinthians 11:31;  Colossians 1:3,15; Colossians 2:9-12; Hebrews 1:1-3; Revelation 1:1.

Isaiah 9:6 refers to a "name" (singular, not a series of names) that the promised Messiah, the son to be given by Yahweh, will be called by: Pelejoezelgibborabiaadarshalom, which has been given the meaning: "Wonderful in counsel is God the Mighty, the everlasting Father, the Ruler of peace." (Isaiah 9:5, some editions of the Jewish Publication Society Translation) Thus, it is not necessary to read the phrase EL GIBBOR as having being a separate "title" or "name" applied to Jesus, but the above rendering would apply all of the expressions to the God and Father of Jesus. I believe that this application of the name is more in harmony with the context of who gives this son, that is, Yahweh. The son is "given" by Yahweh, who, in verse 7, is stated as performing this.

The application of this title, however, is to Messiah after he has been given as a son. There is no application of this title to Jesus in his prehuman existence. The context, however, shows that the application is in reference the Millennial age, when Jesus is to sit on the throne of David, and when the world is to be regenerated in the last day. -- Isaiah 9:7; Isaiah 2:2-4; Matthew 19:28; John 12:47,48.

Nevertheless, the expression "Mighty God" (el gibbor) is applicable to Jesus in a similar, but greater sense, as it was applicable to the Babylonish kings spoken of in Ezekiel 32:21, where the same expression in the plural is used. In that verse, the phrase is not translated as "Mighty Gods", but it is usually translated as something like, "The strong among the mighty." (King James Version) Applying a similar rendering to Isaiah 9:6 would give us "strong one among the mighty", or, if it is to be rendered as a separate title, "mighty one of power." Jesus is indeed a mighty one of power, having been given all the plenitude of might bodily that he needs to carry out the purposes of his God and Father. (Colossians 2:9,10) Jesus, since his resurrection, has also become the "everlasting father," "the life-giving spirit," since it is through, by means of, him that the human race is regenerated / made alive. (Matthew 19:28; 1 Corinthians 15:21,22,45) Those regenerated in this age are regenerated by tasting of the powers of the age to come (Hebrews 6:5), receiving the holy spirit as an earnest, a down payment of that which is to come. (2 Corinthians 1:21; 2 Corinthians 5:5; Ephesians 1:14) None of this means that Jesus is his God and Father, the only true God who sent Jesus. -- John 17:1,3; 2 Corinthians 11:31; Ephesians 1:3.

Christian love,
Ronald

[ppcm]

Hi RRD,

Thank you for this post also. I really enjoy being further educated.

Thank you,
PPCM

[igorwulff]

What I'm very surprised about is that almost nobody understands that "EL GIBBOR" isn't about the Almighty God. If I recal correctly, it is never used for YHWH, is it? Thanks for your article, Ronald! :)

[ppcm]

 Hello igorwulff,

Glad to see you post again. Are you finished with school; got your bachelor degree now?
How's your reaching out to people there on the German border going? What do you think is most important in doing so? Maybe that's for a new thread.

  regards, PPCM

[RRD]

What I'm very surprised about is that almost nobody understands that "EL GIBBOR" isn't about the Almighty God. If I recal correctly, it is never used for YHWH, is it? Thanks for your article, Ronald! :)

Actually, EL GIBBOR is used of Yahweh in Isaiah 10:21 and Jeremiah 32:18. I also believe that is being used of Yahweh in Isaiah 9:6 as I explained in my post, with the meaning of "name" as "Wonderful in counsel is God the Mighty [EL GIBBOR], the everlasting Father, the Ruler of peace."

[humbleservant]

What I'm very surprised about is that almost nobody understands that "EL GIBBOR" isn't about the Almighty God. If I recal correctly, it is never used for YHWH, is it? Thanks for your article, Ronald! :)

Actually, EL GIBBOR is used of Yahweh in Isaiah 10:21 and Jeremiah 32:18. I also believe that is being used of Yahweh in Isaiah 9:6 as I explained in my post, with the meaning of "name" as "Wonderful in counsel is God the Mighty [EL GIBBOR], the everlasting Father, the Ruler of peace."

Greetings Ronald,

When we analize the verse, it can be speaking of none other than Jeshua, the Messiah. God (the Father) was never born, & this is what this verse is saying, it is refering to the Lord's birth.

I believe that it is similar in intent to the two references in Revelation, that are taken by JW's & some others to refer to Jahweh, when they are very definitely speaking about Yeshua.

1, Speaking of the Parousia at Rev.1:7,8; "BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

2, With this in mind, you will notice what the wording is at Rev. 22:12,13,16; " “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.
13 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
16, " “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”
Please notice the exact wording used in these two passages, with our Lord Yeshua identifying Himself as "The Alpha and the Omega," in verse 16!

If you follow my reasoning here in Ch 1:8; "I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Notice, "the Lord God Himself" says that He is coming, Which God is this? It can be none other than the Messiah, at His Parousia. This in then borne out in the later quote from Ch.22:16.

If we truely believe that the Yehua is the only direct creation by Yahweh, it is then very acceptable to read in these verses that Yeshua is who is speaking & refering to Himself as, "the Alpha & the Omega, the first & the last." That is, the "first & last," of Yahweh's creations!

WCL, Ion

[RRD]

Having been sick for the past few days, I haven't been able to sit very much at the computer. It seems that there have been a lot of varied opinions being disussed. I hope, Yahweh willing, to address at least some of these opinions that I believe are in serious error.

Greetings Ronald,

When we analize the verse, it can be speaking of none other than Jeshua,

I believe you have misread what I stated. I never said that the verse itself applied to any other than to Jesus. Yes, Isaiah 9:6 does indeed apply to Jesus, the son of the Living God, and not the Living God. However, the singular name by which the son is to be called refers to the God of Jesus, not Jesus!

Isaiah 9:6 is Isaiah 9:5 in the Jewish Publication Society version of the Bible:

For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom.

One name, not a series of names.

The Jewish Study Bible:

For a child has been born to us, a son has been given us.  And authority has settled on his shoulders. He has been named “The Mighty God is planning grace; The Eternal Father, a peaceable ruler”—

This version gives a translation of the singular name as a sentence being ascribed to the God of the Messiah, that is Yahweh, which is usually the case of such a name as given to person or thing.

That singular "name" in Isaiah 9:6, when applied as the scripture says it to is, that is, as one singular name, not as series of names, should be given as such name usually is applied in the Old Testament, not as a series of names (plural), but as a sentence. Such names of persons or things are often describing Yahweh, not the person to whom the name is applied. Thus, the name given to the Messiah of Yahweh does not describe the Messiah to whom the name is given, but rather the God and Father of Messiah. All is "through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God." -- 1 Corinthians 8:6; Philippians 1:11.

As I stated before

Often such a "name" given to a human or a thing is describing attributes of God/Yahweh, and the application of such a name to a human or thing does not designate the human or thing as being God/Yahweh. Thus, for instance, when Jacob called a certain altar by the name, El-Elohe-Israel, which could be read as a series of titles: God, The God, Israel, we realize that this is not what Jacob meant by this. Rather, we understand that he was not saying that the altar was "God," or that the altar was "the God," nor that the altar was Israel, but rather that the name of the altar was meant to say something about Jacob's (Israel's) God. Thus, this name is usually given a meaning something like: "God is the God of Israel," or probably more likely, the first EL should be understood with the general meaning of might, strength, power, etc., thus: "Powerful is the God of Israel." Likewise in Isaiah 9:6, since it is directly stated in the singular as a name, not plural, as "names", we believe it more correctly to be understood as describing Yahweh, not the Messiah who comes in the name of Yahweh. Some editions of the JPS give this name the following meaning: "Wonderful in counsel is God the Mighty, the everlasting Father, the Ruler of peace." From this perspective, this singular name that is given to Messiah would be describing the God and Father of Messiah, not the Messiah himself.

See the following:

The Singular Name
Not A Series of Names
The Singular Name of the Son Given
The Singular Name

[RRD]

I believe that it is similar in intent to the two references in Revelation, that are taken by JW's & some others to refer to Jahweh, when they are very definitely speaking about Yeshua.

1, Speaking of the Parousia at Rev.1:7,8; "BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Ion,

The word "Lord" in the expression "Lord God" is the result of the attempt to change the holy name to Kurios, or some form of "Lord." The phrase from the Hebrew contains the tetragrammaton (Strong's Hebrew #3068) and usually ELOHIM (Strong's #430), one of forms of the word for "God" (Strong's #410); the World English usually renders that phrase in the Old Testament as "Yahweh God."

In keeping with the context, verse 7 is in reference to the Son, not with the phrase ho erchomenos as is used in verse 8, but with erchetai, while verse 8 quotes the God of Jesus, speaking not of coming in the clouds, but of His eternal future existence.

Revelation 1:7 is in reference to an event of the parousia, not necessarily to the parousia itself, while Revelation 1:8 refers to the eternal existence, past, present and future of the One spoken of in Revelation 1:4, who is distinguished from Jesus in Revelation 1:5. God, of Revelation 1:1, who is distinguished from Jesus in the same verse, is identified in Revelation 1:4 as the One Who Is, Who Was, and Who is to Come; this is the One who sits on the throne (Revelation 19:4; 21:5,6), and who is not Jesus, since Jesus is depicted as the Lamb who approaches the One Who Sits on the Throne. (Revelation 5:1,6,7) In Revelation 1:6, "God", who was, is and is to come, is further identified as the God of Jesus, at least as can be seen by the Greek and and many translations. Thus, if one applied Revelation 1:8 to Jesus, and should carry such reasoning to its logical conclusion as applied to the other scriptures, Jesus is both his God, his Father, and Jesus the Son of God, and Jesus is both the the Lamb who approaches the One who sits on the throne, and also the One who sits on the throne. Thus, when examined with the context, and the rest of Revelation, Revelation 1:8 is very definitely not Jesus speaking, but rather Yahweh God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who is speaking.

2, With this in mind, you will notice what the wording is at Rev. 22:12,13,16; " “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.

Yes, Yahweh, the God and Father of Jesus, comes to judge the world. -- Psalm 96:13; 98:9.

He comes to judge the world by means of the one whom he has ordained. -- Acts 17:31.

13 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

This refers to One sitting on the throne, not to Jesus, the Lamb, who approaches the One sitting on the throne.

16, " “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”

Here John (through the angel) quotes Jesus, the Lamb who is not the One quoted in verse 13.

Please notice the exact wording used in these two passages, with our Lord Yeshua identifying Himself as "The Alpha and the Omega," in verse 16!

The Lord Jesus is not identifying himself as the Alpha and Omega, such has to be assumed and read into the verses, which, in effect, would mean that Jesus is both the Lamb, and the God of the Lamb whom the Lamb approaches (Revelation 5:7), and that Jesus is Yahweh God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who sent Jesus. (Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Isaiah 61:1, Acts 3:13-26; Hebrews 1:1,2.

If you follow my reasoning here in Ch 1:8; "I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Notice, "the Lord God Himself" says that He is coming, Which God is this? It can be none other than the Messiah, at His Parousia. This in then borne out in the later quote from Ch.22:16.

In Revelation 1:8, it is the God of Jesus who is being quoted, and there is no indication that Jesus ever claimed to be Yahweh God in any of the verses given. He who is, who was and is to come, the Alpha and Omega, He who sits on the throne, is the God of Jesus, not Jesus! This can be seen in Revelation 1:1, where "God" is spoken of as totally different from Jesus, and then Revelation 1:4,5, where He who was, is, and is to come, is presented as "God" of Revelation 1:1, and Jesus is depicted as not being "God" who was, is and is to come, but as separate and distinct from "God", who was, is, and is to come, the one identified as Alpha and Omega in Revelation 1:8. If John is quoting Jesus in Revelation 1:8, then it would follow Jesus gave to Jesus the Revelation -- Revelation 1:1.

If we truely believe that the Yehua is the only direct creation by Yahweh, it is then very acceptable to read in these verses that Yeshua is who is speaking & refering to Himself as, "the Alpha & the Omega, the first & the last." That is, the "first & last," of Yahweh's creations!

WCL, Ion

Yahweh, the One who sits on the throne, does refer to Himself with the expression the First and the Last [ho prwtos kai ho eschatos] in Revelation 22:13. Jesus uses the same expression in Revelation 1:17 and Revelation 2:18. However, this does not mean that Jesus is referring to himself as Yahweh God of Revelation 1:8! Jesus is referring to himself as the first and last, who was dead, and who lives forevermore, that is, the firstborn of the dead of which he speaks of in the context. (Revelation 1:5) Yahweh God of Revelation 1:8, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Exodus 3:14-16) is distinguished from Jesus in Isaiah 61:1 and Acts 3:13-26, and Yahweh God never died, so as to be made alive forevermore!

I have here summed up the findings as I have presented in more detail at:

Revelation 1:17; 2:8 – The First and the Last
Revelation 1:4 – Who Is, Was, To Come – Jesus?
Revelation 1:8 – Is Yahweh or Jesus Being Quoted?
Revelation 1:8 – The God of Jesus Speaks (SoY Link)
Revelation 21:6 – God Who Sits on the Throne (SoY Link)
Revelation 22:13 – I am Alpha and Omega (SoY Link)

All stated in Christian love,
Ronald

[humbleservant]

Hello Ronald,

Thanks for your replies.

I don't think, nor ever have, & am unaware that I have made any statements to the fact that Yeshua is saying or suggesting that He is Yahweh Elohim, His own Father. Or that He is equal to His Father.

I apologize for misunderstanding your post on Ps.9:6.

WCL, Ion